Jessica, Hemma, and Nada emphasize how important community is to building support and connections in the legal world. Nada shares the origin story of Contract Nerds and the impact that online platforms had on scaling her business.
Jessica and Hemma of DocuSign speak with Nada Alnajafi, founder of Contract Nerds. They all emphasize how important community is to building support and connections in the legal world. Nada shares the origin story of Contract Nerds and the impact that online platforms had on scaling her business.
The three also discuss the acquisition of Contract Nerds by DocuSign and the value of community-driven insights for product development.
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HEMMA: People don't like the networking word, but really just enjoying the community is enough. You don't need to need anything. What I find is being generous yourself, coming to the community with a service mentality, offering to help people when you can. You're not doing that conditionally. You're not looking for something in return. But boy, does it pay dividends sometimes.
NADA: It all starts with relationships and having a community allows people to come congregate in a platform, in a place, around a certain topic that they're all interested in. To build relationships and you never know what a relationship can do for you beyond just the genuine part of having that relationship where five years from now, it could lead to an acquisition. It could lead to a new job like it did for you, Hemma. It could lead to a speaking opportunity. It could lead to you winning that negotiation when otherwise you might have been stuck and showing up for the community and for the people in your life. Just genuinely without having those expectations or trying to steer it in a direction. But just come and be yourself. And give to others what you know, your knowledge, your experiences, and share. And that's how we build trust and that's how we build relationships.
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05:20 - Meet our guest
18:20 - Selling Contract Nerds
21:35 - Building a presence in compliance
33:00 - Learning from your community
38:48 - Keep or Redline
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Find Nada Alnajafi on LinkedIn
Find Jessica Nguyen on LinkedIn
Find Dr. Hemma Lomax on LinkedIn
More about Docusign
[00:00:00] jessica: Welcome in-House Legal Friends, to another fresh episode of In-House, the podcast for in-house legal professionals.
[00:00:08] I'm Jessica Nguyen, your host, deputy General Counsel at DocuSign, and also the new head of Contract Nerds. I am so honored and thrilled to have this episode today because, spoiler alert, your special guest is Nada Alanjafi, the head of for the founder of Contract Nerds. But before we dive into talking to Nada. The topic of the day is all about the power of personal branding and community and the value of branding and community in the legal profession. Of course, as I do with all of my in-house episodes, I have a special DocuSign cohost. My DocuSign cohost for the day is, drum roll. Dr. Hemma Lomax,, deputy General Counsel at DocuSign and head of Global Business Integrity.
[00:01:08] Hemma great to have you on the show. How are you doing?
[00:01:13] hemma: I am very happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Really excited to speak to you and Nada about this, Contract Nerds, and more. Really excited to be part of your community.
[00:01:22] jessica: When I was thinking about the next episode for In-House, I couldn't have thought of two more amazing women who have built communities from scratch and how it's really impacted the legal profession. Your personal brand itself. Tell the folks who listening and getting to know you for the first time about your role at DocuSign and also about your compliance communities and podcast!
[00:01:48] hemma: Oh, thank you. So I am, as you mentioned, um, head of global business Integrity at DocuSign. Um, what we do there is we, uh, we're an ethics and compliance function, but I like to say we're more than that. We're also the culture builders. Uh, we like to try and help build a culture of psychological safety, ethical culture, ethical decision making, and make sure that people feel a sense of belonging and connectedness when it comes to.
[00:02:08] DocuSign because my theory is that that's really what helps you make the best decisions if you optimize those conditions. So that's what I do is my day job. As you mentioned, I also like to spend a lot of time in the community, the legal community, the compliance community. And I've been in the US about 16 years and so been happily collecting people along the way.
[00:02:26] And one of the most recent things I've been doing is a podcast. I love this genre of podcasts. I was invited as a guest to a podcast called Great Women in Compliance a few years ago. I was a victim of my enthusiasm. They invited me back to be a cohost a few years later. And so we've now, we're going up to 300 episodes.
[00:02:42] And each week we
[00:02:44] jessica: Wow.
[00:02:44] hemma: We interview great women in compliance from all walks of life to tell their stories. We have a few great gentlemen in compliance dropped in there, but what is really important about the, the the podcast is not just the content we put out, but really the community we're building, to your point, there's really nothing like this supportive community.
[00:03:01] I always say compliance is a bit like pro bono. We're very generous. We're not competitive. We share ideas, insights, we commiserate together. And so it's really been quite powerful. For me personally, but also for the community itself to rise each other up. My co-host, Lisa Fine, founded it with someone called Mary Shirley, and together they wrote a book after starting the podcast called Sending the Elevator Back Down.
[00:03:22] And I mentioned that because that's really what we're all doing, isn't it? We're there for each other. We're we're helping each other. We're sending the elevator back down. So, yeah, I, I really do believe in the power of community. I've benefited from it. I can't wait to hear more about how you've done the same matter when it comes to contract nerds.
[00:03:37] jessica: What a great story. Hema, for folks who also, I hope I can share this. So it was community that helped you land your role at DocuSign. My understanding is the person who left the head of compliance role at DocuSign, she, she knew you personally and, and recommended you for this role and what, what a powerful tool is community is.
[00:03:57] hemma: I mean it really is. And yes, I could tell, I could talk for a long time about that story, but I'll tell you it briefly. So, yes. I met her by sitting next to her at dinner in another community, so someone else created a community that I could sit, sit next to someone like Karen, and she thought of me when this role came up.
[00:04:12] Also, the organizer of that dinner thought of me when it came up, and then I realized that outside council that you use is the same outside council I was using somewhere else and they thought of me. So it really is powerful talk about the pull of the community when firstly, you know, I had to be vulnerable and let people know I was looking.
[00:04:26] And so that's one thing I would say is leverage the community. Secondly, you just don't know what's going to serve you, so. A couple of years ago, I sat by and enjoyed a stranger at dinner. And three years later they were pulling me into this magnificent opportunity. So a hundred percent people don't like the networking word, but really just enjoying the community is enough.
[00:04:45] You don't need to need anything. What I find is being generous yourself, you know, coming to the community with a service mentality, offering to help people when you can. You're not doing that conditionally. You're not looking for something in return. Boy does it pay dividends sometimes. You know, many years later, people just think of you, they remember how you made them feel, not necessarily what you did or what you were able to do for them but just more a case of being a, a warm part of the community.
[00:05:09] So, yes, that, thank you for reminding me. Um, there were many touch points when I came to look for this role, and the community really did help me and lift me up.
[00:05:20] jessica: Well, speaking of generous and paying dividends many years later, I can't think of a more generous person than Nada who built the community of contract nerds. Not because she was looking for a payout though. She, she did get a little bit of money through the acquisition, but because of your love and you saw a gap and a need for folks to come around and learn about contracts.
[00:05:44] Nada, actually, I, I can't do it justice to hear, to share the story of why you built contract nerds. So I would love to hear in your words, nata good to, great to see you. Always lovely to see you.
[00:05:54] nada: So good to see you, Jessica. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:05:57] jessica: Yes. For the folks listening and getting to know you for the first time, can you share your story of, of why you built contract nerds about five years ago now?
[00:06:07] nada: Yeah, absolutely. And, and your story is fascinating, Hemma, and thank you for sharing it. I'm excited to be here with you also. Honestly, I, I think what sparked me wanting to build contract nerds was the lack of community support when I was in law school and as a new graduate, knowing that I wanted to go in-house.
[00:06:28] There were organizations set up for folks wanting to go in litigation or big law, but there was very little out there that supported new law school graduates who wanted to go in-house. And I felt so alone, especially because I graduated in 2009 at the height of the great recession, and I went to law school in Seattle.
[00:06:52] I moved back to California. I took the California bar exam. And the economy had just completely tanked, and it became absolutely impossible for me to get an in-house role straight out of law school. And I didn't know what my options were. So I started reaching out to my network as I was advised to do, and it was really hard to get information on.
[00:07:17] What do I do next? How do I set myself apart from the other resumes? And if I want to go in-house, but I can't go in-house now, what kind of job should I be looking out for at this moment that will eventually lead me there? These were all the questions that I had. Back then that no one person or community answered for me.
[00:07:38] I kind of just had to go out and figure it out by myself. I was rejected many times I asked people to in coffee interviews that said, no. I met with experienced attorneys who the second we sat down said, by the way, I can't give you a job. I hope that's not why you asked me to meet. You know, and so there wasn't really this sense of community that I was looking for.
[00:08:03] Now, fast forward 10 years later and I was an in-house, an experienced in-house attorney. I had a lot of experience under my belt, and I had gone through this windy, woven path that eventually got me where I wanted to go. But how could it have been easier, less stressful, and less isolating for those coming next?
[00:08:26] I found myself with a lot of time on my hands during the pandemic. So after trying and failing at multiple hobbies, I went on LinkedIn and I saw that attorneys were starting to post and share with one another. And I thought it was fascinating that lawyers were giving away their tips for free and just putting them publicly out there.
[00:08:47] When I grew up in this legal culture of keep your information to yourself, it's sacred. It's your competitive advantage, and I thought to myself, well, what am I an expert in? That I can start posting about and sharing about and helping people with. And of course it came to contracts because I've been working with contracts for so long and I love it.
[00:09:06] And that's when I did my first post on LinkedIn, which was in-house Counsel tip, use explanatory comments with your red lines. And it got so much engagement and people saying, yeah, I totally agree, or what do you mean? I didn't learn that? And it sparked this conversation. And from there, my post grew into articles, my articles, I grew it into a website.
[00:09:29] My website grew into a newsletter. That grew into a webinar program and all of this was creating a community. The Contract nerds community that now five years later, we have almost 25,000 subscribers. We send out a newsletter every week for the last five years. We host a CLE Webinar every month. We give away so many free resources, templates, guides, downloads, checklists, all to help out the community of lawyers and contracts professionals.
[00:09:59] So that they don't have to feel alone in really wanting to do great at their job.
[00:10:05] jessica: Wow, how amazing. In just five years, you built all of that Nada. I actually, I feel proud because I believe I liked and commented on your first LinkedIn post Nada, so I feel like it was a part of your building journey.
[00:10:19] nada: Oh, you have been an integral part of the contract Nerds Journey from the beginning, Jess. And we talk about this all the time, how, who would've known five years ago? That where we would be today with Contract Nerds, that you would be the new head and we would be partnering together and collaborating on building this community out even further.
[00:10:37] But you were a champion and a fan and a community member from the very beginning, and I remember that vividly, which is just one of the many reasons that I thought you would be the perfect next head of contract nerds.
[00:10:53] jessica: That's right because it was never, I mean, I wasn't even working at DocuSign at the time. It was more about what you were building was special Okay for me to share. I remember you got a job offer with another company and they wanted you to stop running Contract Nerds, and I could see how sad that made you and I'm so glad you turned down that job offer.
[00:11:13] 'cause look, look where you are now. Look where we are now. Who would've,
[00:11:17] nada: see, I always call you for advice, Jess, and that is, you know, if the listeners are interested, the, the origin of the story of how this acquisition came to be.
[00:11:28] jessica: That's right. I actually joke with my, my colleagues and, and my husband that you actually called me for advice, but I think you also, Jedi mind tricked me to, "wait a minute, it would be a great idea for DocuSign to acquire contract nerds, not this other contract company or CLM company that wanted to acquire you, Nada."
[00:11:47] nada: Yeah, so it's, it's so funny. I, I must have done a Jedi mind trick without even knowing it because it was honestly just calling you as a friend. But for the audience, I had a couple other offers and, when I had decided I wanted to sell Contract Nerd, and I was being very mindful and very thoughtful and very picky about who I would sell to.
[00:12:07] But ne neither of the offers were really settling a hundred percent with me. And I had a couple sort of doubts or concerns. So one day I called Jessica and I knew she was still on maternity leave and I just said, can I pick your brain for a few minutes? And I asked her a few questions like if I, you know, if you hypotheticals, hypothetically, if I sold contract nerds
[00:12:27] to a legal tech company, how do you think the community would react? How do you think it would impact my personal brand? And really just, and we were talking about branding at that time, and you gave me some great advice that I took back and thought about, and then the next day you called me and said, well, why doesn't DocuSign, uh, buy Contract I was like, what of yes, for you to be the new head, that would be a dream come true. And. It was, I think one of those moments where you have like imposter syndrome where you're like, that would be my, my top choice, but is it even possible? And then you open up that door to make it possible and it's just been amazing ever since.
[00:13:10] So,
[00:13:11] jessica: Yes. It, it just makes sense. Hemma, I don't think you even heard the actual origin story of the,
[00:13:16] hemma: no, I'm loving this. Uh, this is organizational, but it makes perfect sense in the theme of, of connection and community and service. And, you know, there's serendipity of it all. To your point, Nada, you're, you know, you are reaching out to a friend that supported you. You weren't looking for anything but advice and comfort.
[00:13:32] But actually the universe delivers sometimes. Right. Meant much earlier than you realize five years ago. That connection, that LinkedIn like to your point Jessica, and that really resonates with me because it can be that simple. For those that are wondering, that think Jessica and another or I are different and we've got a special skill, it really does start with being appreciative of other people's work.
[00:13:49] Right. Elevating them. Right. That's what you said. That and and recognizing that you can also contribute and, and help. So I love to hear the story. It gives me chills.
[00:13:57] nada: Yeah. I love that you said serendipitous because we, I think Jessica and I feel that way too. I know I feel that way so much that it was just meant to be this way. But it all starts with relationships and having a community allows people to come congregate in a platform, in a place, you know, around a certain topic that they're all interested in.
[00:14:20] To build relationships and you never know what a relationship can do for you beyond just the genuine part of having that relationship where five years from now, it could lead to an acquisition. It could lead to a new job like it did for you, Hemma. It could lead to a speaking opportunity. It could lead to you winning that negotiation when otherwise you might have been stuck and showing up for the community and for the people in your life. Just genuinely without having those expectations or trying to steer it in a direction. But just come and be yourself. And give to others what you know, your knowledge, your experiences, and share. And that's how we build trust and that's how we build relationships. And that's really been the core mindset behind building contract nerds is the trust and the relationships are the foundation of the community.
[00:15:17] Whether you're talking about contracts or compliance or football or whatever, you know, the topic is that you all find in common. It's the trust in relationships.
[00:15:30] hemma: What strikes me also about your story, if I just made one thing is it was done on online, it was digital, and I just wanna underscore that because many people might think, oh, I haven't got time to go to dinner. I don't wanna go out and network, or go to a bar or happy hour. But actually all of our stories starts online and I just think it's a good, it's a good point for your listeners to, to remember that.
[00:15:48] Digital Love, digital support is just as important and just as valuable. My being invited on that podcast was the same thing. I was liking other people's posts on LinkedIn and it's very much possible now. The art of the possible is you can reach many more people. Now, if you had done this in your local community with your, you know, local friends, you may have gotten to.
[00:16:06] 20, 30, 50 people, but you got 25,000 people because you were able to do this online and genuine connection with someone like Jessica as a result of it. So I just wanted to celebrate that because people worry about being remote and it is quite lonely. I would say you, you need the communities as an antidote to that, but also the communities can help you scale.
[00:16:24] So now we can reach the whole world with the same love and generosity. And so I just wanted to comment on that. Not to interrupt, but I was gonna say it's quite
[00:16:31] nada: True and such a good point. Absolutely. Absolutely. We, we were virtual first, but we found ways to connect at scale with large webinars of thousand or more attendees to one-on-ones to, you know, smaller group conversations. And now hopefully Jessica will even add on those in-person event.
[00:16:54] To what we offer to give people different ways that they can meet up. But when you're a busy in-house attorney, you may not have an opportunity to leave and go to a happy hour or to an in-person luncheon. And so yes, we're here. We are. We're in your living room or your office, or your phone, wherever you are.
[00:17:12] We are there if you want to spend the time with us.
[00:17:15] jessica: Yeah. And, and I think a big part of the origin story for contract nerds is you built contract nerds during the pandemic. So a lot of us were searching for connection and community, when we were all locked in our homes. We were just craving that connection and I loved him. The point that you, you made here is that. That community can be built in so many different ways. It doesn't just have to be with in-person dinners. It could just be a simple like and comment on a like-minded professional's LinkedIn post. It could be attending one of the many popular contract nerd webinars and engaging in the chat. Every month contract nerds host a CLE accredited webinar, and the one of the best parts of the webinars folks is it's not just, yes, we have great speakers who are subject matter experts on the topic and you get free CLE, but it's the chat.
[00:18:08] Like I have never been Nada to a webinar with such an active chat with folks collaborating and sharing tips, sharing their LinkedIn profile links. Connect and talk offline later. That is so magical. Nada, how do you, so as you have now sold contract nerds to DocuSign a few months ago, how does it feel to hand off the reins of your, I think what you called in your, your founder post your third child to DocuSign and, and me, I, you, how are you feeling?
[00:18:38] I, I'm sure mixed. A lot of mixed emotions.
[00:18:40] nada: I feel so proud. Honestly, just so proud of the company. So proud of you and DocuSign and how you have really championed this transition and so proud of the community who has stuck by our side, who has trusted us with this decision, and who is not only showing up, but showing up more. I mean, in the last three months, we have only seen faster growth, higher engagement.
[00:19:11] The feedback is very positive, and so I really, really am at this place where I just feel so proud and that. This is the path it was supposed to take. And in like the same, analogy of of it being my third baby, it's like seeing your third baby. Like you drop them off at elementary school on the first day and they're like, you can't get out of the car.
[00:19:36] You have to stay and just let them go. And you just watch them and they're back, back is turned and they're walking away into the. The new school with their backpack, that's too big and you're just like, wow, you're growing up and you don't need me. And that's a good thing because you are going to do amazing things and I'm always gonna be here to support you.
[00:19:55] And like that. That's exactly how it feels. And I think when you think about, transitioning or selling a community, it comes down to who is the person that's going to love. The community like you do. It's not about who's the CEO or who's gonna be the boss, or no, it's who has that love and that passion.
[00:20:22] That's really gonna continue to translate and speak to the community members. And there are only maybe a few handful of people, honestly, that when I was doing my. My strategic thinking of who I wanted to sell to. Maybe a handful of people who have built trustworthy and reliable brands around being a contract expert that could even be potential candidates.
[00:20:48] But Jessica was the number one on my list and on the list of other advisors and people I spoke to, it was always, you know, Jessica. And so that I think is very key. And hopefully you don't underestimate Jessica, your contributions to how successful this has been because I don't,
[00:21:08] jessica: Oh, Nada, That means so much to me. I think even before DocuSign, I, I, I have shared your passion and care of, of contracts and I think the community knows that, so I'm so happy. Thank you. Community contract nerds for embracing me as your new head because Nada has some big love, some big shoes to fill for me. Luckily, the very cute shoes, you're very fashionable on. Nada, you're,
[00:21:32] nada: Of course.
[00:21:33] jessica: Well, Hemma, You know, when I think of compliance roles, what I think very interesting about your background is when I think of a lot of compliance folks are more behind the scene folks, more low profile and risk averse, even more so than contracts professionals or commercial counsel, which is very external facing or, or dealing with external counterparties and negotiating deals.
[00:21:56] For folks who have a compliance background or even just really hesitant to build an external presence, which is frankly probably most legal professionals who were very risk averse. What advice would you give them to take as this first step to build that external brand? Because we've heard so far in the first 20, 30 minutes, we have all developed so much value from this friendships, relationships, jobs, acquisitions.
[00:22:25] And so much more.
[00:22:27] hemma: So, well, there's so much to be gained from the community and, but I wanna just start with you the first comment you made, the, the idea of compliance as a a back office job and being risk averse. I think it's because we present ourselves as too risk averse that we end up in the back office. That makes sense.
[00:22:41] Really paralyzed from doing the work that we're here to do, which is really a service to the business to help the business get where it wants to go, swiftly, safely, strategically, it's really hard to do that from a back office, and so don't shy away compliance officers from that role. And so it's not, it's not branding for branding sake.
[00:22:58] It's not ego. We're not trying to get a personal brand outside or inside. It's actually strategic to make sure that you're making connection and you're making people feel seen, heard and valued because. You need those people to do your job. Firstly, they're the eyes and ears when it comes to risk. They are the drivers of opportunity.
[00:23:14] They're the ones that you are trying to help. Um, secondly, you want to get into their hearts and minds, and what a better way, better way to do that than to be part of their community. So really, um, the driver of effective compliance is making sure that you can communicate and connect now. That's branding insight.
[00:23:31] I would say compliance is actually a marketing and communications role. That's what I would say. Uh, you really shouldn't be in the backend looking at processes and policies and drafting things that no human actually wants to engage with or read. You should be out there marketing and communicating this idea of pausing, thinking before you act, getting help if you need it, and making good decisions on a daily basis.
[00:23:51] How does that help if you have a, a brand outside your day job? Well, firstly what I didn't mention about the compliance community is we learn so much from each other. Many of us sole practitioners, we have a sole firm inside the house. There's only a couple of us in the function, and so to share ideas, like I said, commiserate, you know, think about the things that we need to learn about to, to share solutions is really powerful.
[00:24:12] And again, you won't have that if you're not willing to step out and make that community, make that brand. You know, we talked about how to get the job and the serendipity and maybe getting acquired if you've done something wonderful like na Naja. But there's also just the help with the day job. And you said at, at the beginning of your, your introduction, you were looking for someone to teach you about the, the world of lawyer lawyering, the worlds of contracting.
[00:24:32] And the first post you gave was helping others do their job. And so what a great source of inspiration, skill, talent. This idea of crowdsourcing risk is one thing, but crowdsourcing intelligence about your day job is what the community. So let's not, I'm glad you asked the question. It's not underscore, it's not just about having friends and not feeling lonely.
[00:24:51] It's much more strategic because it's one thing to get that job. But those individuals are helping me do my job every day. I stay in touch with care, I stay in touch with the law firm, and they really are teaching me how to be better at what I do and how to serve the people we serve at DocuSign and our customers better.
[00:25:07] nada: I sense a similar hesitation from some of the legal industry as well to be so public and open about their own ways of thinking. Like they think that, oh, well, but I'm the expert in this area, so I don't want anyone else to be an expert in this area. Because then will, what will I have to offer? And that's where I like to challenge folks and say, you actually have so much more to offer and part of what you can offer is to teach.
[00:25:40] And that helps build a more mature function, whether it's legal or compliance or or marketing. Is that the more smart, well-informed, well-educated people you have around you. The better things you can do, you elevate everybody around you. And I had one attorney when I started posting, said, well, you're posting all your negotiation tips.
[00:26:04] Aren't you worried that someone's going to use them against you one day? And I said, I would love that. I love having tough negotiations where the other, the counterparty knows what they're doing.
[00:26:18] jessica: Yeah.
[00:26:18] nada: far when you've been doing, you've been working in your profession for 10 or 15 years. You come across a lot of similar things over and over again.
[00:26:26] Oh, another NDA or oh, another this. But when you get to do that really sophisticated, higher level work, that challenges me also. It's so fun. That's the kind of work that I want to be doing. Instead of saying, oh, another PDF redline. That I have to format and figure out that's low level work that I don't want to have to worry about, but the, oh, there's a limitation of liability and I put this exception, and then they put that exclusion.
[00:26:58] But what about a super cap? But how much should it be? I don't know. Let's talk about it. It that's the higher level thinking work. I wanna do that. I mean, I think it's the first time we're mentioning ai. Which good for us, it's been like 30 minutes and we've gone 30 minutes without mentioning ai, but I think that's how AI is, is really going to.
[00:27:19] Um, also replicate that same feeling of you've been doing something over and over again. Move up in what you're doing. AI can help us with the lower level stuff, but we wanna be able to think strategically and go deeper, and that's what community does. That's, that's the competitive advantage that community gives you.
[00:27:39] You can get smarter, you can learn faster, and you can have a lot more fun with it than just sitting by yourself.
[00:27:47] jessica: I'm actually surprised you got that comment or feedback on sharing chips because the way I think about it is, as a avid poker player, I'd rather play poker with other people who know how to play poker because it is not fun to play poker. To play poker. It's like, are are they? Do they even know the rules?
[00:28:06] Are they betting? Like and I think it's very analogous to contract negotiations and redlining. You wanna negotiate with someone who understands the rules of engagement and when, and folks, uh, she's not, she's too humbled to mention it herself, but Nada is a published author of the book, contract Redlining Etiquette.
[00:28:24] And so if you're learning about proper redlining negotiation and rules of engagement and etiquette, I recommend you check out her book.
[00:28:32] I wanted back earlier you mentioned that your role in, in compliance is actually a marketing role. it's The first time I've ever heard that from a compliance leader, frankly, Hema. And then I find that very fascinating and also spot on and super smart because it helps drive adoption and excitement and engagement.
[00:28:50] Oh, we are various policies and a culture that you are building internally here at DocuSign. Tell us more about the, the, your marketing campaign and community building here at DocuSign.
[00:29:01] hemma: Oh, I'd love to. I'll flip it a little bit. 'cause we also use a product mindset in our function. And what we mean by that is we, we think about what we need to do, we build it, and that will be the policies, the controls, the training. But Spotify had this framing. It was think it, build it, ship it. See it adopted tweak, and what often gets missed is the see, see it adopted bit in the tweak, and that's where the community comes in because there's no point me shipping a policy or putting a, an announcement or an email out that something's new and it just doesn't get to anyone.
[00:29:29] It's like me putting a, a LinkedIn post out in draft. It really just doesn't do anything. Or I put it out one day and no one's allowed to see it. So we really need to think about what we're doing to see it adopted. Number one. And that takes communities, that takes champions, that takes, uh, cascading through leadership, talking in their own voice about why these things are important and how to bring integrity to life in action.
[00:29:50] So that that's the why. And then the how are things that we, we just launched an Everyday Integrity coaches program in Brazil, uh, a pilot program that hopefully we're testing. We're gonna see if we it works and see if people can help each other on a coaching level. To make good decisions on a daily basis, not, you know, lack lacking agency and having to come to us every two minutes for everything, which I make the joke.
[00:30:12] Every compliance training quiz, it's like a multiple choice with four answers, and it's three silly answers. And the last one's ask compliance. Well, I don't want you to ask compliance. I want you to feel agency that you can think about this yourself and make decisions when we're not there.
[00:30:25] jessica: I.
[00:30:26] hemma: Right? Well.
[00:30:27] Because it's designed that way. But really what? What does that say that, let's go to the marketing point piece that kind of says that I'm the hero, and if I'm the hero, who does that make you? That makes you the villain or the insider threat. That is not good marketing. What we need is for you to be the hero, the business, to be the hero in their own journey.
[00:30:44] And we are there to guide that. That's why it's marketing. That's why you need to create community. That's why you need to have someone trust you. And so community, you know this. That's what you've built when it comes to contractors. You've built a trusted community that, you know, Nada, you could say, who are you to guide the community on how to do contracting?
[00:31:02] Well, you've built that credibility, you've shared that credibility, you've done it as a service. You've invited others to do it with you. So that's how you build trust. And that's what we're doing at DocuSign as well. It's crowdsourcing the risk intelligence, making spaces for people to talk and think and, and be, quite frankly, make mistakes and learn from each other.
[00:31:20] And so I go back to that final part of the product mindset, the tweak it bit, you can't tweak it unless you are learning. From a community, and I know that that's one of the most important things that we've achieved by partnering with the contract nurses, is we've now got this community that can tell us what they need going forward.
[00:31:37] If AI is changing the way contracts are negotiated, we've got a community that can give us feedback on how our products should develop, how our own products should be tweaked and shipped. So I'd love to hear more from the two of you about the benefits of DocuSign bringing contract notes into the family, but I can see.
[00:31:55] That community building in that way is gonna be massively impactful for our products. A massively impactful, I'm sure for our marketing.
[00:32:03] jessica: Well, you thank you for doing my job so well for me, Hema, and, but, uh, I'm so glad that I don't have to do a lot of internal evangelism about the value of contract nerd here at DocuSign. You, you get it, but you are a community builder at heart. So there, there was some education that I had to do internally Hemma just, full disclosure to like why contract nerds make sense, but the. Number one thing is here, to build a successful product, you have to have a customer first or user first mindset. And one of the biggest drivers of value for contract nerd is what better way to understand how to build the solution by engaging with the community who's obsessed with the problem.
[00:32:47] So DocuSign, if we wanna be more than just the leader in e-signature and we wanna be the leader in all things agreements and ai, well let's engage with the community who's obsessed with contracts slash agreements. So number one thing is let's learn from, we learn from the community just as much as the community gets value from DocuSign being the sponsor of all the contract nurse activities and the events, the CLEs and whatnot, and anything you'd like to add to that.
[00:33:17] nada: Yeah, I mean, I think that the community has a wealth of insight and knowledge and. They are either DocuSign users or potential DocuSign users and clients. And so even before the acquisition, I monetize the contract nerds business because every community is a business. Also, we, we need to raise money in order to help fund the different programmings.
[00:33:46] I monetized through sponsorships purely because I didn't want to charge community members because I wanted the contract resources to be accessible to all, so I made a choice not to do a membership based community. But to make it free. But that means we have sponsors coming and the sponsors are able to gather some insights from the audience members, and the audience wants to hear from sponsors because they're on the market looking for a new tool, or they don't even know that they need a new tool to help solve one of their problems.
[00:34:18] Or maybe they're just going to be a user for now, but five, 10 years from now, they'll be a decision maker. And right now there's so much changing with ai. That. I think it's really smart for legal tech companies to take that customer first approach. But if they're not your customer yet, how do you reach them through community?
[00:34:38] And DocuSign gives so much to the community. That when we ask them questions like, Hey, who wants to learn more about DocuSign? Intelligent Agreement Management? So many of them raise their hand and we're gathering the data, and that's a great path to educate them on what you offer, to ask them questions and to make them feel like they're a part of the product building process.
[00:35:06] You know, they're not just a receiver on the other end, but they're a part of it. And I think that gives them a voice, a seat at the table. And again, it just makes them feel more involved with the community. So I think DocuSign and Jessica do a really good job of offering so much value to the community that it's okay, it's not taboo or offensive to ask 'em a couple questions.
[00:35:28] Like, Hey, what do you think about this? Hey, do you wanna sign up for a demo? Because the community gets. Such an incredible amount of value from it that the generosity, the exchange, the reciprocity, right, that we're giving to each other, and that's what community's all about.
[00:35:43] jessica: Oh yes. So Hemma just to give you some context, we experimented and we just recently changed the CLE webinar registration forms or contract nerds to ask folks and they can opt in at their, you know, they don't have to opt in, but they can opt in and like, do you wanna hear from our sales organization to learn more about DocuSign products? Over a hundred folks have raised their hand to give you, learn more about our products because that they're, they're curious and there's, I think they're also grateful and they see the investment made by DocuSign into this community, which I, I believe is more viewed as, Hey, if they care this much about the community and my problems, then they're gonna be a great vendor service provider. So speaking of that, yes. And so for folks who are also worried, like gen AI is changing the world, not just for contracts and the legal profession, as we're all thinking about and seeing all these huge raises and valuations for illegal tech companies in the world. It's also changing the world of marketing and changing the world of search engine optimization.
[00:36:47] So, and think about your buying behavior folks, when you're in the market for a new attorney or a new tool to buy to help you with your day jobs, do you do a Google search or do you ask a peer or a community member Neta folks? That's right. We're we, they're, they're nodding their head that it's definitely asking a peer or community member when it comes to a tool. Yes. I think it's so smart for businesses to invest in all the variations and forms of community, whether it be folks like contract nerds, all the communities, hemes, building around compliance, and then obviously, uh, your own customer community and partner community. Those are also communities to invest in.
[00:37:30] nada: That's right. I think to the market, the DocuSign acquisition of contract nerds means that DocuSign values the legal and contracts community so much that they are investing money, resources, and time in hearing what you think and what you have to say. And there is no other legal tech vendor that has ever acquired a community.
[00:37:58] So I think that is loud and clear, and DocuSign is the only one sending out this message, and to me that's a huge competitive advantage.
[00:38:09] jessica: Oh, you are right Nada. I think. I think DocuSign is the first in this category to take this, take this step. We're we're blazing trails just as we did with E-Sign.
[00:38:19] nada: Absolutely, yes.
[00:38:23] jessica: Alright,
[00:38:24] nada: E to E.
[00:38:26] hemma: I love that.
[00:38:28] jessica: Nada, I, I'm sure you listened to maybe a past episode of In House, but for our final segment of the show, it's Perfect For You Nada. 'cause you're literally an author of a book called Contract Redlining Etiquette. But the final fun segment for the audience is called Red Lines.
[00:38:45] And so, as you can imagine.
[00:38:46] nada: Love it.
[00:38:47] jessica: Yes, yes. You're the perfect guest for this, but we asked our guests and, and, and lovely DocuSign co-host, what if they would redline or keep something? You ready? Nada, kick it. All right. Would you keep or redline having Harvey Specter from suits in your law firm if you owned a law firm?
[00:39:10] nada: Yes. Keep. Oh yeah.
[00:39:14] jessica: Tell, tell me why. Because I, I've had a guest say Red Line because he's a troublemaker.
[00:39:19] nada: It is all about his negotiation strategies. He has some awesome negotiation strategies. He's a great closer. I have used some of his strategies in negotiations and won them because of it. So absolutely, he might be a liability in certain areas, but I think he will more than pay for it.
[00:39:41] jessica: Can you share? Like is there a strategy that's very Harvey Specter that has worked for you? Because I, I'm always in the market to learn more about strategy.
[00:39:50] nada: strategy?
[00:39:51] jessica: Yeah.
[00:39:52] nada: Oh yeah. Okay. So he likes to save his biggest piece of leverage for the very end of the negotiation. So he holds onto it, and then at the after he's gotten everything in other ways, he drops the hammer. And that's usually what gets them to say, okay, fine, let's settle. And I did that on a very large commercial lease agreement dispute where I had printed out a news article that said that this client was on the verge of bankruptcy and we were the ones who had not paid. And at the very end of this, back and forth, back and forth, how much will we pay? And I'm like, we don't have money. Don't have money. And at the very end, I said, I fed them the article through the mediator.
[00:40:41] And basically if they go into bankruptcy, then they're gonna get zero. So I fed it through and I was like, look, they can take it or leave it. Here's what's happening. And immediately the mediator came back and said, they'll accept your proposal. So that was my Harvey Specter moment.
[00:40:59] jessica: Alright, so Harvey Specter, great negotiation tactics, but maybe increase your, uh, your liability insurance if he's at your
[00:41:07] nada: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:10] jessica: Hemma, Hemma would you red line or keep Harvey Specter from,
[00:41:13] hemma: A hundred percent keep. A hundred percent keep. Uh, you know, he's very charismatic. Charisma builds communities, is what I like to say. It's contagious. So definitely want that in the room. Um, and yeah, I love to quote, I think it's Jim Rohn or Tony Robbins, they say successfully clues and to, I just point like he, he, he's.
[00:41:31] Successful over and over again, and you want that kind of mentorship and model in your firm. So a hundred percent for the reasons that she explained as well.
[00:41:39] jessica: Next question. Nada, keep our red line. Are you ready?
[00:41:43] nada: Yeah,
[00:41:44] jessica: Going to law school today?
[00:41:48] nada: Absolutely. I would keep.
[00:41:50] jessica: Keep. Okay. Tell me your thought process there. Because law school is a huge financial investment now, more so than when we were going to law school.
[00:41:58] nada: It is. Law school was probably one of my favorite three years of my life. I think law school is the biggest takeaway I had from law school was just teaching me how to think, how to analyze. In a way that I had never learned before. And I think what's worth the financial commitment is the fact that it opens so many potential career opportunities and doors.
[00:42:22] You don't just have to go and be a lawyer, you can do so many other things, but it sets a really great foundation. I think it sets you up for success to work in business. In law, even in tech, there's just so many different opportunities. So I, I would do, I say all the time, I'm such a nerd. I have all my highlighters right here.
[00:42:44] So I would, I would go back to school like that. If there was an opportunity,
[00:42:48] jessica: Oh my God.
[00:42:49] nada: back to get my second jd.
[00:42:53] jessica: All right, Hema, would you keep a red line going to law school today?
[00:42:56] hemma: Yeah, 100% keep. Maybe for different reasons, but yeah, a hundred percent. Firstly, I didn't have to pay for it. It was free in, in the uk. So let's say it's not about the money. I did pay for a, a, a postgraduate course here in the us but no, it was free. Yes, celebrate free
[00:43:11] nada: That's amazing.
[00:43:12] hemma: But again, yes, some of the best years of my life.
[00:43:15] But I will say both law schools, I went through the postgraduate, the undergraduate. It's again, how easy to make community there. I mean, gosh, it's not a Platy for you. You walk up to the first day, you speak to the person behind your line, the person in front of you, and you've made friends for life. And so definitely, uh, an opportunity to build community. You can also be a cons consumer of everything that law school's put on. They, they do a lot for us when it comes to c. Creating that community. But I found that you can create the community yourself, that you have an a law school with a brand name and you can invite people to be on a panel with you and sign up for all the, the groups.
[00:43:46] And so I started, my, my community building really started in, at university law school,
[00:43:51] jessica: Oh.
[00:43:52] hemma: A really, a really important time in the life where you're gonna make. Connections for life, right? Again, people remember how you made them feel during those three or four years of law school and it's certainly something to do.
[00:44:03] I will say that one caveat to my, to my keeping not redlining is I am also excited about going to law school today. 'cause I've gotta assume it's changed a little bit and there's none. I said, you want to learn to think, you want to learn to find the answer, not just know the answers. And I did actually go to a law school in Spain as well, as well at a third there.
[00:44:20] A lot of it was rote learning. We don't want that anymore. We know that's. Change. Um, a lot of it was just memorizing laws, memorizing case law. And so this idea of how we learn, I think is going to be the next, uh, the next generation of law school. And I'd wanna go back right now just to see how they're tackling that issue.
[00:44:37] jessica: Oh my goodness.
[00:44:38] nada: I'll go with you, hemma.
[00:44:39] Yes. let's do it.
[00:44:41] jessica: I actually worry about the future young generations of lawyers coming outta law school with how quickly AI is progressing. It can do a lot of the rote tasks that all three of us used to do in, in early in our legal careers. Yeah.
[00:44:55] hemma: I think you go to law school to be the, to, to design the future as well. I hope that, I hope that's what's happening, right? You don't just go to, to inherit the past. You go to design the future, and so there's smart young people. That are living through these interesting times that have an opportunity to create the future.
[00:45:11] So I would say to anyone listening that is in that situation or have got children that are going, this is the time to think of the art of the possible. This is the time to not worry about loss of status quo, but to be really excited about what contracting will look like, what law will look like. Um, yes, it will look different, but you know what?
[00:45:28] The only no one's coming to save you. You will build it yourself. I again, quote Hamilton, the musical, how lucky we are to be alive right now. Look around, if I was in law school right now, I would be, I would be trying to design the future of legal tech. I would be just trying to design the future of contracting.
[00:45:43] Design the future of litigation. How are people gonna come to dispute? It will not look the same. We know this, but that's not a threat, that's an opportunity. We really should sign up for law school now.
[00:45:54] nada: I, I love everything that you just said, and I think that law is not a static career at all. So we, what I went to school for? A few years ago, I'm not gonna say how many is not, you know, I wouldn't have imagined what I'm doing today. I, I didn't know anything about AI and, I think too, there's an opportunity in terms of community building to go back and teach to the law school.
[00:46:18] So I love, I go back to my alma mater, Seattle University School of Law, and I am a guest lecturer for several, several of their courses that are transactional or contracts based, and try to really inject that real life experiences into the curriculum and, some law schools have even included contract redlining etiquette.
[00:46:38] So I think there's an opportunity where lawyers with a personal branding and resources and books and a passion for teaching and sharing can go and give back to that future generation.
[00:46:52] jessica: I love that. Well, that is such a powerful way to end the episode. Nada, thank you so much for joining hemma and I on the show today. It was so great to have you.
[00:47:03] nada: You so much for having me, Hemma, It was so great to meet you, Jess. I will talk to you tomorrow probably.
[00:47:09] jessica: But Nada, since folks, uh, don't, don't have that relationship with you like I do 'cause I'm so lucky. Uh, what's a great way to, to follow you or connect with you, Nada.
[00:47:18] nada: Yeah, come follow me on LinkedIn Neta Alanjafi, and also you can go to our website, contract nerds.com and a little subscribe popup will come up and you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter. So every Wednesday morning, we'll send you our articles, resources, guides, free webinar recordings, and then come to our next webinar recording.
[00:47:38] We have them every month where Jessica and I give away one-on-one opportunities where you can sit down with us. Chitchat, just like friends, like we're doing here today. So, come join and follow and hope to see you all soon.
[00:47:51] jessica outro: , m u s i c b r e a k
[00:47:55] Hemma, That was so amazing to have Nada on the show with us. The whole themes that really stuck with me is, leading with giving will pay with dividends, is a theme that resonated with me in our discussion. All of us, what in our journey, our professional journeys, have been givers of our career giving tips for free without expecting anything in return.
[00:48:22] And for all of us, we shared what that generosity has led to, whether it be job opportunities, growing a community, which has led to an acquisition that you didn't even have to ask. She didn't ask me to, for DocuSign to buy contract notes. But I know that it was so valuable for both the community and for DocuSign that it was just a no-brainer.
[00:48:43] Hemma, what are some of the takeaways you got from the discussion?
[00:48:46] hemma outro: Yes. No. Look, you guys are unicorns. You're so impressive, and I can be quite intimidating really, when people hear about these successes. Think how could they ever replicate it? But what I loved about what she talked about was the humble beginnings of this story. We really should focus in on the accessibility of this success.
[00:49:03] The fact that she, again, to your point, was giving in the most unique sense. So the first thing, just the, the idea of using simple. LinkedIn likes or follows or comments and starting to share simple, like one simple insight about the, what did you say? The explanatory comments on the red line, um, is the beginning of this magnificent journey that she's been on.
[00:49:23] And again, a short one to your point, only five years. And look what she's achieved and now what you've achieved together. The other thing then I, I like to do, I, again, I mentioned success, these clues. So let's look at the, the clues in her success, not only the small beginnings, but the growth. I heard her mention that there was a point in her time where she, she grew up, she was brought up wanting to keep things close to her and wanting to not share and thought that was her competitive advantage, but at some point she was willing to, to open her eyes to a different reality and then really lean into that.
[00:49:52] And I think that's another. Clue that we should all be taking away from this podcast is you can think that you know how to do a thing, but be open to the complete opposite because as soon as she, I mean, assuming as soon as she realized that actually she didn't need to keep things close and giving was actually the way to go.
[00:50:08] Look how things opened up and blossomed for her again unconditionally. But there we are. There's gains and gains and dividends to her generosity and the way she did that. And again, yours also, the fact that you, you know, a very accomplished professional. You don't need to support a, an up and coming LinkedIn poster, but you did.
[00:50:25] You saw a spark, you didn't know each other, but still you share, you shared across the, the interwebs as it were, and gave that love. And again, she wouldn't have called you the, that's the other third clue. I guess I'll just highlight before we close the, the vulnerability piece that she, she was willing not only to share her expertise, but also share her doubts and to stay in contact with someone she met online, right?
[00:50:46] These things are acts of small acts of courage that build up. And yes, there's the wonderful prize at the end, but for me, the real prize of today's conversation. Was just tracking those small clues that led up to the big, the big win, and letting our our listeners know, your listeners know that that's all it's about.
[00:51:02] Genuinely show up. Enjoy what you do. Have passion for what you do. Share it with others. Stay in contact. You know, if she may have thought you were too busy, you are a busy lady, but she still picks up the phone when she needed you, and I love that. I love that because even without the acquisition. That's a real gift that you gave her, that she gave you.
[00:51:20] And if we can all just repeat some of those clues, I think there'll be ground success for all of us. So we all rise together and that was my key takeaway from all those clues.
[00:51:28] jessica outro: How I would summarize all the wonderful things you just said, Hema, and what we talked about on the show today, is that accessibility and vulnerability has really built a strong foundation for trust and a relationship, and the community sees that, which is why they, they tune in every month over 2000 people, Hemma, tune in to come watch a webinar, a legal webinar about contracts. Yeah. 2000 plus people. It's because of this community. And we didn't go to the fanciest law school or have the fanciest jobs. It's because they know we care. And that is, that comes right through. All right folks. Thanks for joining us for another great episode of In-House.
[00:52:11] If you haven't listened to an episode before, I recommend you tune in to all of our prior episode that features some of the best In-law. Have a great day, everybody.